Author Topic: Capital Ship Movement  (Read 8626 times)

Offline Morgul

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Capital Ship Movement
« on: August 31, 2005, 01:25:16 pm »
I decided to post a copy from our current wiki about Capital Ship Movement control. Dave and I worked everything out. and I think the idea will me *much* more intuitive... but I wanted opinions from the forumites.

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Capital Ship Control Design Doc

There are two different styles of Capital Ship Movement, AutoNav and Manual. They both are equally functional, and both use the same underlying movement system, but the interfaces are both pretty different.

AutoNav

AutoNav mode allows you to select a point in 3D space, much like Homeworld. You move your mouse in the XY Plane, and when you hold the shift key, it locks XY movement, and allows for Z-axis movement. When you release, it locks the Z axis, and allows for XY movement again. Once you select that point, your ship will orient itself properly to go to that point. If you hold the control key, a representation of the ship will be shown at the last point selected, allowing you to set the orientation of the ship when it reaches that point. Holding control will allow you to set the yaw, and control+shift will allow you to set the pitch at the destination. Instead, if you right click, you can specify as many points as you want, building a path for your ship to follow. (Note: The AI is rather conservative, and will avoid objects by a safe margin. Also, you can't specify points on the surface of or inside solid objects.)

Manual

Manual mode is the Capital Ship version of the Fighter movement style. It gives complete control to the pilot, allowing for much more advanced manuevers than AutoNav. It uses the same system for pitch and yaw as AutoNav but only allows for one point to be selected. It provides control for roll, and sideslip.

Movement/Targeting

It is important to note that constantly being in Movement Mode (regardless of which) could be rather distracting (visually) and rather annoying (from a gameplay perspective). Also, one would like to be able to target other ships, and possibly even engage in combat. So, there should be a key to toggle between Targeting mode and Movement mode.

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So, what do you all think?
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

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Offline fehknt

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Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2005, 04:03:58 pm »
first thing that strikes me... can't one control yaw and pitch in one mouse stroke?  Why make it two?  (or if i'm making stuff up, correct me) <:o)

and just a clarification, for my benifit: we are going to have it be possible for one person to manage the nav system, and another to manage the targeting, and another to man a specific turret (fed targeting info from the targeting station), right?  Or is each area planned to be more defined -- as in, one person does nav and targeting. period.  you cannot split that job up, you cannot combine and jump into a specific turret after you set a course, etc.

I definitly like this, especially as it seems to naturally follow from the fighter control scheme.

Offline BigDan

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Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2005, 07:38:02 pm »
I would say on capitol ships you should maybe make it a team effort, one person pioleting one or several fighting in turets , one runing tactical , so on and so forth, this would give it a real life feal as a very large ship with its own limits and benifits.

Offline Morgul

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Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2005, 08:44:22 pm »
Quote from: "BigDan"
I would say on capitol ships you should maybe make it a team effort, one person pioleting one or several fighting in turets , one runing tactical , so on and so forth, this would give it a real life feal as a very large ship with its own limits and benifits.


The simple answer is: yes. You have the option of being the captain with a munch of AI's doing the jobs for you... *or* you can assing as many people to whatever jobs you want. Stations will be freeform, and definable. Basically, imagine a list of functions, and you get to assign keys to them, for your station. You could have 'Grab me a coffee' in a button on the same station as 'Fire the Flaming Green Missles of Death'. (The rest could even be environmental science, or even CNN News.)

Quote from: "fehknt"
first thing that strikes me... can't one control yaw and pitch in one mouse stroke? Why make it two? (or if i'm making stuff up, correct me) <:o)[...]


Well, think about it this: You're not in the persepctive of the ship. You're in a 3rd perspective, *almost* like RTS. (Seriously, it's a stripped down version of RTS where you can't select more than one ship, or do the kewl 'order' system of RTS)

So, since you're in an independant view, and the shi[s orientation can change without yours changing... it makes it pretty mugh a pain in the butt. We *could* do it, but it's less intuitive then Homeworld's system (which I love.)
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline Dawn

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2005, 12:42:38 pm »
I like this a lot! A couple of thoughts though, first off, I think that having humans or PC's manning turrets should have a HUGE advantage over AI/NPC's. I'm not sure how we can realistically achive this as in reality, AI could be far better aims then humans can dream of being but it woudl be nice. Secondly, I like the idea of capitol ship in third person. Obviously capitol ships would have turrets and I think that as the ship commander/captian (we will have to eventually set in stone what rank this is) should have the ability to fire individual turrets at indivdual targets. He should have complete control of every aspect of the ship at his fingertips, so that it's still baised on skill. In otherwords a simple little figther could take out a capitol ship after about an hour of firing his lasers at it because the commander is to noob to be able to click on his little dude and start alll weapons attacking.
We should also set the amount of mass a capitol ships hanger has as relative to the mass of fighters that general players have. Players should be able to dock as long as there is room for them in the hanger and take control of either an assigned aspect of the ship or one they have privelegs to that they choose.
Also capitol ships should be expensive! As in no single player can easily attain one. It has to be the corporate work of an alliance to bring together enough money for one of these behemoths, and obviously the alliance would work as a team to defend it and use it as what it is.
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Offline Morgul

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2005, 01:49:37 pm »
I like this a lot! A couple of thoughts though, first off, I think that having humans or PC's manning turrets should have a HUGE advantage over AI/NPC's. [...]

Well, there's a good deal of advantage, and it's not even coded into the game! Think about it, no matter how good the AI is at aiming, it's still programed, and locked into it's little box. We can't program adaptive AI that comes close ot humans. Sure, the AI might be able to shoot the head of a bolt off your ship at 3 kilometers, but it can't make the split-second decisions about which is more important to shoot, the attacking fighter, or the incoming missle. Yes, we can work on this, and get some really hig grade AI into this, but there is always the human factor that cannot be ignored. Plus, I don't think it's going to be very plausible to cordinate an attack with the onboard AI. It's gunn to have a handful of modes, and that's it. With people you can have differetn stratigies, and different tactics. (Like using your plasma weapons to herd fighters into  an area of space where you just fired a bunch of mines, things like that.)

[...]Secondly, I like the idea of capitol ship in third person. Obviously capitol ships would have turrets and I think that as the ship commander/captian (we will have to eventually set in stone what rank this is) should have the ability to fire individual turrets at indivdual targets. He should have complete control of every aspect of the ship at his fingertips, so that it's still baised on skill. In otherwords a simple little figther could take out a capitol ship after about an hour of firing his lasers at it because the commander is to noob to be able to click on his little dude and start alll weapons attacking. [...]

Well, yes and no. The Captain should have complete control of his ship, but he should not be required to micromanage everything. I would like the captain to have some fine grain control but I feel a blanace needs to be made here; since a captain shoul rely on his crew to do thier jobs. Now, if the crew is all AI, I can understand that, or if it's a small ship.. sure. However, I think that there should be a HUGE advatange to flying a capital ship with a real life crew of players, vs one with a crew of AI. Where this balance should be found, I think only testing can really tell us.... but I'd like some thoughts on it.

[...]We should also set the amount of mass a capitol ships hanger has as relative to the mass of fighters that general players have. Players should be able to dock as long as there is room for them in the hanger and take control of either an assigned aspect of the ship or one they have privelegs to that they choose. [...]

The way we'll do this a combination of that, and a slot based system. The 'hangar' will be a inventory that contains X slots. Each slot will have   a max weight of Y kgs. There needs to be a slot open, and the fighter needs to be in under the weight limit inorder to dock. Now, keep in mind that there's a first person mode to all this. Once a person docks, they will have to exit thier ship, then walk through the corridors on the ship, reach their station, activate it, and then they can start manning the different aspects of the ship. If they're not allowed access, they either won't be able to get to that part of the ship, or they won't be able to log onto a console to control that part of the ship. (Think of it like a *NIX box... When they log into a console, they have to input a user name, and password. Thier privledges will determine what functions they can control. Yes, there is generic consoles, and certain situations (like dead crew) when a ship will allow people elvated command status, but I don't want to work those out in my head right now. Regardless, this is how I see it working.

[...]Also capitol ships should be expensive! As in no single player can easily attain one. It has to be the corporate work of an alliance to bring together enough money for one of these behemoths, and obviously the alliance would work as a team to defend it and use it as what it is.

I agree. Sure, if you save up enough money, you might be able to buy a capital ship (Actually, freighters, and large transports are considered capital ships... but I know what you meant.).. but you'd need clearance, and permission from the governemtn who owns that design. Then again, there's always going out to a junk yard, stealing a hull, and then saving up enough money to be able to rebuild it. (I actually want to make this the most typical way that people who don't care about thier reputations get capital ships. Can you imagine how much fun it would be to steal one, and the tick it out?  ;D ;D ;D :D :D 8) )
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline Dawn

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2005, 10:36:00 pm »
Heck yes! I'm feeling the whole "pimp my ship" thing going on! Buy and old junker and have it repaired for a small penny and then buy your new guns and junk for it.... Mhhmm!
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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2005, 01:45:05 pm »
Hmmm... We could incorporate infultration into this. Imagine your co-op buying a 5,000,000,000,000,000 priced capitol ship. You upgrade everything with stolen sooni and grey tech, and then one 1337 spy comes in, plants a bomb in your reactor, and blows it to He... Heck.

Man, that'd piss me off... But imagine how much you want to hunt down that person now. ;)

~Neo

Offline Morgul

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2005, 02:07:20 pm »
That's the beauty of this game. People *will* do things like that. And they will get hunted, and killed for it.  8)
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

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Offline contingencyplan

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2005, 05:24:22 pm »
But, they'll become legends first... :P

And there'll be somebody willing to pay them to do it again, for somebody they don't like.
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Offline Morgul

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2005, 01:08:03 am »
...I wanna play the game, now!!!! DAMN YOU DEVELOPERS! CODE FASTER!!!!
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline Oceanus

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2005, 09:20:46 am »
I dont want to seem like a copy cat but I would suggest a lot of you take a look at Darkspace and Eve Online for some reference. Eve online was done perfectly for a MMORPG. The styles of the ship and the way it was all done are great. If they still have the 30 day free trial. Give it a try and see what you think. It certainly opened my eyes to some key elements to be found in a MMORPG. Also. Think of this.

What if the hunted collected his own bounty? Like he had a partner to kill him and they would split the bounty. So someone puts a 5 mill bounty on me and I just collect it by getting a crapy ship and having my friend kill me. heh. The bounty just goes to me. :)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 09:22:46 am by National_Cookie »

Offline Dawn

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2005, 01:49:50 pm »
Please post a link where we can check out the Darkspace mmo. I aggree that everyone should check out eve-online. It is a great MMO but it's problem is that it's not fast-paced enough. The differance with it and us is that we will have more stuff going on and a more encaptruing story...
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Offline Oceanus

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2005, 01:55:06 pm »

Offline Morgul

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Re: Capital Ship Movement
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2005, 08:57:18 am »
Please post a link where we can check out the Darkspace mmo. I aggree that everyone should check out eve-online. It is a great MMO but it's problem is that it's not fast-paced enough. The differance with it and us is that we will have more stuff going on and a more encaptruing story...

Plus, we're the pwnage, and they aren't.
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett