Author Topic: RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI  (Read 5795 times)

Offline contingencyplan

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« on: July 12, 2005, 11:46:09 am »
As far as how we interface the RTS aspect with the FPS and FlightSim aspects of the game, I am thinking something along the lines of Warcraft 3.  Only played it a little bit, but I've read enough to know that the premise of the game isn't to simply amass the crapload of units and overwhelm the enemy base.  The goal is to choose and buff your hero, and with supporting units use the hero to kill the enemy base.  Alternately, think of Commandos in Command & Conquer.

The point is that Players should be these hero-style characters, even if they're on the lowest rank in their group.  Commanders also can create / build AI-controlled soldiers, which are lower powered (requires less computer resources to handle them if they're fairly simplified), that are more or less expendable.  Further, the Commander can build tanks and vehicles and such that either have NPC pilots or Player pilots.  The Commander's goal is to use the NPC soldiers to protect their "hero" Player soldiers, while using both to wipe out the enemy base.  Likely strength as commander will be heavily influenced by the number of Players killed while under their command.  

The AI for the NPC soldiers would be that of most RTS games - pathfinding and such, combined with intelligent / realistic behaviors (like hiding behind crates when getting shot at, moving in groups [using flocking behaviors most likely], etc.).  They just have smaller / less  owerful weapons than do the Player characters.

Any other ideas?
~Brian
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Offline whitelynx

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2005, 06:22:55 pm »
I'm not sure we should differentiate between player and non-player characters that much... It also shouldn't be common practice for a commander to send all his NPC units in a suicide rush while is PCs stay back and snipe with artillery... it should take into account the number of his _soldiers_ killed, not how many were player and how many weren't.

A side note: vehicles aren't created with pilots in them. You buy or build the vehicle, and then have an existing character pilot it.

Dave
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Offline Morgul

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2005, 06:47:07 pm »
I agree 110% with dave. My goal is for people to say, "Oh, that was an NPC?!" when they play against our AI. I want all NPC's to be believeable characters.. not just the typical NPC's you meet in a game like NWN. (I also want Admins to regularly take control of different NPC's and play them.. so you never really know if it's an AI, or a player.)

I don't think that PC's should be different at all from NPC's. (Even though players would like preferential treatment) I want the game to immerse you in the universe... I don't want people thinking about NPC's or skill points, or anything like that. I want it to be a believable universe, not the next fad in MMORPG's. I'd like people to lose themselves in their missions, and to live out thier dreams in this universe... and I don't think that will work if we make parts of it clearly artificial.. like the AI.

--Chris
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline contingencyplan

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2005, 11:25:53 pm »
Well, the reason I put in there about treating Players as quasi-heroes is that Players will likely want to customize their equipment - weapons, armor, etc.  Personally, I think they should be given the opportunity to.  I suppose we could allow them to obtain weapons and armor from a depot in-base.  However, this also can make it more difficult for Commanders to control their Player units, especially if they're running low on the high-powered guns.  Ranks could allow some amount of control - "You have to be at least Rank X to use the Uber-Tuff DoomSender Anti-Capital Ship Pistol."  

However, this creates a conflict - when a new Soldier is sent out into the field (question - do we allow "creation" of soldiers, or how do we deal with "creating" a new Marine or whatnot?), if the Commander doesn't tell them what to get, then the AI ones will have the basic loadout (or a random one, if we program them that way).  So in my own fatigue-induced way, I guess I'm asking what should the balance be between the Commander's choosing the proper loadout, the Player's desire to choose their own loadout, and the AI's inability (due to lack of freewill) to know the difference?

This also brings up another consideration, and brings back the idea of teleportation - how do people get back to base?  Anyone who's played an RTS game knows that the bases are usually fairly far apart.  Since battles are planning to rage over continents (if not entire worlds), that's a LONG way to walk.  At the very least, the Player should be able to teleport back to the base - they might lose some of their equipment and such (to create a cost system - yeah, you just saved your life, but you have to start back at square 1 with the Dinky Pea Shooter Standard.

I agree that the game should be immersive, to be certain, and I fully support the goal of indistinguishable AI (honestly, might be a little out of our grasp, but I'm all for trying :-) ).  

Also, I have the beginnings of ideas on things like reinforcements and death on the battlefield.  However, it's late, my brain is close to mush, so they're not formed well enough to post yet.

~Brian
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. 
    ~Robert Wilensky

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
    ~GK Chesterton

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.
    ~Blaise Pascal

Offline fehknt

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2005, 10:31:45 pm »
ok, how about this: a commander wants to recruit a "sniper".  the job gets posted to characters' jobs available queue if they have equipment and skills that would qualify them as a sniper -- which should be set up by the commander, what qualifies... basically, custom units per commander.  They must have at least the BASE that the commander wants, and could have better equipment.  if no player takes the job in a reasonable period of time, an AI plays it, and the job ramains posted but only to people that have identical equipment as the AI randomly chose.  (should be told what equipment is required minimum or required exactly so people know).

Now, have the price of the unit based on the min specs the commander publishes, and the faction he's fighting for gives him X money to spend on recruits, and upon completion of the battle, the player gets paid the recruitment cost.  If the commander wins, (s)he should probably get a bonus too, and if they lose... they should hope to live. <:o)

This way, players are totally responsible for having thier own equipment and vechicles, but the commander is not totally dependent on a character having certian equipment or vechicles, because AI can do the trick too.

Offline Morgul

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WARNING: LONG POST
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2005, 12:24:57 am »
Ok, I have some major thoughts on this. Unless I have some large holes pointed out to me that I can't see, this is kinda the way I want it... (I'm open to having my mind changed, though)


There are two possible systems of command, both different, but workable.

Military Style Command

In the military, you're not asked to do a job, you're ordered to do it. So, Commanders will be given X ships, Y troops, and X equipment (including support ships, etc.) In deciding who's AI and who's player... we do it like the military. Whatever 'unit' (as in rougue squadron, not as in a single player) is the best suited to a mission will be assigned... or whatever's available. That Unit will be made up of whatever players have been assigned to is, and the rest will be AI. The players will each have whatever role has been assigned to them in the unit... on player may have decided to train as a sniper, and hece is the person the commander will use when he needs a sniper. It's up to the commander to decide who to send to do what. He should know (atleast some) of the troops, having worked with them before. Even hif he doesn't, basic stats will be easily accessable.... so he can make an iformed decision. I'm not decided if he will know who's AI, and who's player... depends on how good the AI is, really. However that will be reflected in it's stats, I would assume.

Equipment is assigned to the players. They mostlikely will not 'own' much of anything, it will all be provided. IF a player would like to purchase a certain piece of equipment, I assume it's possible, but they will still be given the choice of whatever's provided.

Mercenary  Style

With mercinaries, things are a bit different. The commander will most likely be given whatever his 'customer' provides, along with his own people. Here, he will post a 'job request' if one of his own people doesn't fit the bill. It will list the equipment provided, and the equipment *not* provided, along with the payment. Whatever player wants to take the job can, but the Commander can reject someone if he chooses. The commander decides how long a job posting is open... if he needs someone, and no one's accepted, he can choose to 'buy' another merc from an available pool (read: random AI mercs). Everythign else will be like the military style.

Equipment on the other hand will mostly be personal for all mercs involved in the operation. Merc armies will most likely be much smaller, and limited in resources, so personal weapons, and ships will be a must. That also means they can be outfitted as players see fit. I can see a good number of people pefering the Merc style, as there's more freedom to play as you want. However, if you crash your fighter, you've gotta foot the bill....

Also, medical care is much more... ahem... shady in the Merc style. Bandage your own damn arm.

--Chris
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline fehknt

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2005, 04:48:17 pm »
Why not both?  If you're fighting for a faction that has an army, then military style fits the bill.  If you're  fighting for a faction that has a war to fight, and cash to spend, but no army of thier own, then they hire out.

In general, the big factions have thier own troops (and perhaps they will request you to become a general for them after proving yourself on the ground, unless you've screwed up fot them in the past as a general), and the small ones outsource to whoever fits the bill (maybe needs at least one victory under thier belt in order to qualify, or more) and you're given certian amounts of money to spend on hiring troops and purchasing equipment.  If the troops are specialty (snipers, commandos, etc) they probably have thier own equipment, and thier cost is higher, not to mention that they have a real skill to sell too, and so are going to cost more for that reason.

Offline Morgul

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2005, 08:34:05 pm »
Quote from: "fehknt"
Why not both?  If you're fighting for a faction that has an army, then military style fits the bill.  If you're  fighting for a faction that has a war to fight, and cash to spend, but no army of thier own, then they hire out.[...]


Ok, I think I'm missing something here.... isn't that what I was proposing? If you're a member of any military, you won't be working freelance, you'll be working for them.... if they order you to go help, chances are they will send thier own troops (along with you) to go fight, so the military style still applies. If you're a mecinary, you will be fighting in the mercinary style, regardless of who you're fighting for....

Now, a word about cost.  People working for a large military will get paid whatever the military pays people of thier rank. (ranks work just like normal military ranks... you don't become a general 'per battle', instead you're a general, who gets assigned battles) That means that all 'units' will have a certain cost, which the commander doesn't care about (money will be kept track of, and the commander will be bothered if there's something to worry about, like low funds)

If you're a merc, you care about the cost. (it comes out of your profit) I'm not sure how to work the unit costs (since mercs generally don't work for fixed rates... do they?)  

Now, resorces are another thing to think about.. having tones of money doesn't mean you have a ton of guns... you *could* if you buy them. What you outfit your people with will be dependant on what's available, and what can be bought. However, ammunition, guns, and other weapons aren't unlimited like in most RTS.


--Chris
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline contingencyplan

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 08:31:41 am »
Here's my ideas for the RTS command aspect:

Quote from: "morgul"
Equipment is assigned to the players. They mostlikely will not 'own' much of anything, it will all be provided.


The immediate problem I see with this is lack of customizability.  One of the things that makes MMOGs successful (IMO) is the ability for Players to customize their characters as much as they want.  This goes beyond simple changes like hair and eye color - they will want to modify their equipment loadout as much as possible.  If Players aren't given that option, then they will all become mercs, and few if any will join the factions' militaries.

The reason Players like to customize their equipment is twofold: 1) They may be naturally good at something (e.g., sniping); and 2) The status symbol.  If you see somebody walking around, toting the DeadEye sniper rifle (one of the best ones out there of both legal and black-market rifles), then you know that Player is good to be able to afford it.

However, we have to mix this with the military-style control aspect.  The Commander may want or need a particular kind of soldier on the battlefield.  If we have everybody running around as snipers, then we're in trouble.  Thus, here's what I would propose for the military-based aspect:

Let's say our Player trains as a sniper. When they finish the training, he (or she, of course) is given the basic sniper rifle and other entry-level equipment.  The Player is then sent into the battlefield as a sniper with this basic equipment.  As they gain experience (in general, not talking about Exp here) and skill (again, in general), they will gain access to higher-level equipment (e.g,. the DeadEye rifle) for their particular faction.  They will essentially "own" this equipment - it will be in their inventory.  However, they don't "buy" it, since it's part of the military's equipment.  They simply choose what they want out of the equipment list they can access.

Now, when a Commander is given our Player, the Commander has to decide what to do with them. If they don't have any need for a sniper, then the Commander can put our Player to use in another area, though the Player is obiously not going to perform as well in the area, since it's outside of his expertise.  If the Commander wants a sniper, but needs for the Player to use a different weapon, then the Commander can give the Player that weapon.  If necessary, the Commander can override the clearance for the Player to give him access to a higher-level weapon.  At the end of the battle, the Commander can make this change permanent, or can revoke it and place the Player back at their original equipment clearence.  In any event, thought, the Commander should have a good reason for changing the Player's equipment loadout. If the Player is part of a particular squad, then the Commander might have to clear it with the Player's Squad Leader first, or something like that.

Alternately, the Commander could request certain soldier types for the coming battle, and they receive that exact set.  If they don't request a sniper, then our Player gets assigned somewhere else.  The Commander might alternately request certain squads, and receive all the soldiers in that particular squad.

As far as the AI is concerned, if the Commander is using an NPC soldier, then the NPC is given the default loadout for the current choice; the Commander can customize this equipment as much as is needed.

So how does this differ from the setup that Chris is proposing?  Well, it differs in the following ways:
  • Players can choose their loadout from the equipment available, based on faction and equipment clearance, rather than having it always be assigned by the current Commander.
  • Commanders should stick with the Player's current loadout except in exceptional cases.  If we can find some way to enforce this, all the better.


Quote from: "morgul"
Now, resorces are another thing to think about.. having tones of money doesn't mean you have a ton of guns... you *could* if you buy them. What you outfit your people with will be dependant on what's available, and what can be bought. However, ammunition, guns, and other weapons aren't unlimited like in most RTS.


Agreed. However, the Commander might be able to mine resources from the current planet and refine them at the base. Then, s/he could take those refined resources and manufacture weapons on-site.  If the Commander can't build a particular weapon (either due to lack of resources or due to lack of manufacturing capability - the plant can't build everything), then they can send for it.

One major difference in the two systems would be this: the military would require a lot more planning, since they can't just buy whatever they need.  They have to manufacture it somewhere, either at their base or on another planet.  Thus, the better they plan it out, the more stuff they have when the battle starts, rather than having to wait for the equipment to come from somewhere else.  Furthermore, the supply line would be important as well - if conditions change, then the Commander needs to be able to send for more or different equipment and soldiers. Thus, space battles could play a tremendous role in a battle on the surface of a planet - if the Commander loses his supply line through space, then he's on his own until those lines re-open (or he loses the battle).

Mercs, on the other hand, depend more on money and buying equipment from suppliers.  They have to plan, but their organizations are too small to really maintain manufacturing plants on multiple planets. Thus, they are useful in small situations, where they can buy equipment to suit their needs, and can do so readily and on-the-fly.  There's nothing to say that the supplier couldn't be the military the merc is working with, or whoever else they're working for, but they are more concerned with buying stuff when situations change than with having to plan out the battle beforehand and keep supplies coming.

Anyways, those are my ideas for right now.
~Brian
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. 
    ~Robert Wilensky

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
    ~GK Chesterton

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.
    ~Blaise Pascal

Offline Morgul

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2005, 12:07:59 pm »
Hmm. I do like your ideas about sutom loadouts for players. I'm sure in this day and age, it would be possible for sdoldier to requisition different equipment to suit thier needs. It makes a good deal of sense, and allows for the smae gameplay as the mercs, but in a very different environment.

Now, as far as manufacturing things, I highly doubt that for every battle militaries will being a portable manufacturing plant, or that every planet will have the raw materials they need... However it would be stupid not to have the ability when needed... but the manufactuing plant would have to either be brought and installed before hand, or it would have to be shipped... and set up durring battle... which might take some real effort. I doubt it'd be a standard thing.
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline contingencyplan

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2005, 04:58:46 pm »
Also, something else I forgot to mention: The missions setup and the resulting increase in available equipment would be a good replacement for the "stand in line to kill the monster" and "I gotz the l337 goodz cuz I killed the monster wit my mad skillz" form of quests found in most MMORPGs.  I'd rather have the quests be missions, and the missions be dynamic, based on where each side stands.  I'll explain more in a future post, but basically have a chain of command, with the head cheese say "we want this planet", and missions coming about as a result of that mandate.  Thus, the universe is always in flux, meaning that just because one player partook in a mission doesn't mean that all players will have to do the same mission.

~Brian
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. 
    ~Robert Wilensky

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
    ~GK Chesterton

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.
    ~Blaise Pascal

Offline Morgul

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2005, 05:11:36 pm »
*rubs hands together* Eeeeeeeeeexcelent!

--Chris
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline fehknt

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 09:11:23 pm »
A vote of: I like where this is going.

also apologies (chris/morgul) -- I thought you were meaning for a "we need to choose between merc-style and mil-style", so, no, you weren't missing anything, I was <:o|

Offline Morgul

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RTS / FPS aspect, with comments on AI
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2005, 11:21:50 pm »
No problem....


(And Yaaay for the 400th post on the forums... w00t for me!)

--Chris
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett