Topic: Space Flight Controls, and Realism

[Morgul]

Ok, as the title says, I've been thinking about controls in our space flight sim... and it's really a hard trade off between playability and realism.

I guess the question here is how realistic are we going to make it. Since we're simulating physics, everything already has the realism built in. That being said, I'm sure we can get things set up with thrusters, and automatic correction, that it flys like pong, if we wanted to. Or like MS FlightSim... or like the fly cheatcode in Quake. We can do anything that we need to... however the real question in my mind is: How much skill will a user need to fly a ship? How should it be set up?

Any ideas? If so, please, comment!

[whitelynx]

To clarify, the way we're currently doing it is pretty much 90% realistic. There are some things that will always be unrealistic in a computer game, but this leans heavily on the real-life side of things. If you accelerate in one direction and you turn, your motion in the original direction does not change unless you're using automatic compensation. All of the motion and rotation correction that we do is not done by changing the object's velocity directly, but by using thrusters to change it through acceleration. Basically, it flies like Escape Velocity, X-Pilot, or the original Asteroids. (only in 3D)

[Morgul]

We've recently been told the controls kinda suck. We do know this, and we're aware. We're currently re-re-writing the mehcanics system, and how our thrusters work... in layman's terms we're simplifying everything, and making controls feel much more responsive, and simple. (let us know if you want details.)

--Chris

[fehknt]

I'd like to say that if you make some sort of "auto corrector" component for ships that makes them fly more like people are used to ships in video games flying, make it not very hard to get, but make it really kill the speed of the ship.  Beginners will probably appreciate being able to get around easily, but everyone will move to the more realistic mode because of the huge in-game advantage.  Or they'll get someone else to do thier flying for them.

To directly answer the question at hand: To fly a ship, a user should require almost no skill.  To fly a ship with any real power, aside from slow people-moving, a fair amount of skill should be required.  To really be a fighter ace, you should actually have to be a damn good pilot.  Yes, this makes people that are good at flying fundamentally better than others.  That's how life works, though.  You'd better pick up some sort of skill!

Although, maybe that's just the fact that I always get annoyed at how unrealistic the physics engines in all space-fighter-type games I've played. <:o)

[macguyvok]

I'd like to say that if you make some sort of "auto corrector" component for ships that makes them fly more like people are used to ships in video games flying, make it not very hard to get, but make it really kill the speed of the ship.

Hmm, I like that idea. I don't even think it needs to kill the speed of the ship; there's only soo much you can do with controls like that. With the more realistic controls you'll be able to out manuver anyone not using them easily... making you win in a fight (hopefully).

To directly answer the question at hand: To fly a ship, a user should require almost no skill.  To fly a ship with any real power, aside from slow people-moving, a fair amount of skill should be required.  To really be a fighter ace, you should actually have to be a damn good pilot.  Yes, this makes people that are good at flying fundamentally better than others.  That's how life works, though.  You'd better pick up some sort of skill!

Although, maybe that's just the fact that I always get annoyed at how unrealistic the physics engines in all space-fighter-type games I've played. <:o)

Do I understand that! People are obsessed with ballance in a game... but in this game, there's so much more you can do than just fly fighters.... capital ships will, by nessessity, have a different style of controls (since they can't fly like fighters; they're too big.) ...and then there's even the FPS stuff you can do. Not everyone needsto be a fighterace. Just pray you don't meet one while you're in your little transport...

[Morgul]

Oh, as a note, macguyvok is the God account on these forums.. I mistakenly logged in as him... so assume the above post came from me.

--Chris

[fehknt]

This is what I thought, based on what you've been talking about, and what the webpage said.

Glad you like the idea...  

I would assume that the RTS elements may at times tie into the space fighter and simulations?  maybe even the FP sections?  Offer high pay to get a few human pilots in right where they're needed for your battle of mostly computer-controlled ships?  I could see a good fighter really turning the tide in a high-odds situation...

Not completely clear on _what_ gets done in FP mode... simple interaction?  Maybe exploration of an unknown planet?  maybe i need to re-read the faq?

[Morgul]

FP mode will also be combat as well as what was listed. You can have basic interactions, walk to and from your ships (inside bases, on planets, etc) and ofcourse, fight if need be.

[whitelynx]

Back to the original topic, flight controls... Controls could even be configured and saved on a per-system basis. Even better, they could be saved _with_ a system. That way, if you buy a control system off someone, you need to reconfigure it to suit your control style unless you _want_ to use their controls.

Dave

[Morgul]

Interesting idea... It's customizable, but you actually *have* to customize it! I like the idea.

[fehknt]

oh yes.  Sounds like a good way to show off that extra bit of realism that people don't expect.

[topher]

So my question is will joysticks be supported or just keyboard/mouse?

I'd like to be able to use my nice flight stick ( http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/cyborg_evo.htm )
 or something liek this: http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52.htm

I would totally geek out as i love periphials.

[Morgul]

Well, the answer is:

If I can't use both my X-Box controller (usb dongle I modded myself!) and my MS Precision Pro joystick in the final version, I will strangle every dev on the team.

So, yeah, we'll support any weird hardware we can get for testing!

--Chris

[topher]

Yuck, x-box controller.  Talk about a clunky controller =(  Good news though about supporting controllers.

[Morgul]

I've got the 's' version, and it's actually really nice. I like it much better than a PS controller.... (those hurt my hands)

....however the ABCD (or whatever they are) buttons are a tad annoying, but I've gotten used to it...


Oh well, to each his's own.

--Chris

[topher]

So do we have a current keyboard mapping definition somewhere?  I've played the alpha at home and i have a hell of a time fiiguring out what i am doing.

[contingencyplan]

Judging by the SVN, try precursors/config/keymaps/Default.cfg

~Brian

[whitelynx]

topher: Also, the default key bindings are in the readme. (which is available on the website, on the downloads page.)

Dave

[BigDan]

You Know I think that if you make a few entry level ships for the nwbs in the game and rig them with very easy controles (You know kinda point and go) it would be great for starting off, then when you gain experience in the game you move on to more advanced ships alowing for more personalisation with the controle configuration and alowing the pure phisics to take over thus alowing the player to gain experience in flight as well while there carecter gaines experience.

as for capital ships I figure you need to gain a certain amount of experience flying small ships and how the physics work in real space before you are alowed to piolet a large ship and crash with all hands on board.

you figure if you are flying a large ship like that there has to be other people on board and these other people could be other players, hence if you crash and burn so does everyone else.

This as we all know is the gole of of this virtule world , to make it as real as posable, so as for the controles I feal that we need to make them as user friendly as posable to start and then when knowlage is obtained and practice is perfected alow the player to advance on to bigger and tuffer things thus alowing ever more chalanging play to ocure and keep all players interested much longer.

We all know that when we get a new game we play it for a while and after gaining some form of competency within it we get easly bored and move on to newer if not greaner pastures, so if our chalanges are always changing and keeping game play new I think you will see the gaming audience take hold and make it there own and stay with this game and within this gameing comunity much longer .

I think that the old argument of game balance will be meet with a little more enthusiasium and a lot less griping as well since things will be more like real life on many levels, such as, if you get killed your carecter is dead, and can't be raised like lasurous from the grave, so you have to start fresh even though you can take alot of your stats and put them twards a new carecter.

now getting back on track, the controles should be easy on one or two ships when you start and as you advance you move on to other ships that have been coded as normal life ships with all of the advantages and disadvantages as well.
I think this will keep more players in the game and alive as well.

[BigDan]

Sorry guys got a little long winded