Topic: Scale, Physics, etc..

[Rosencrantz]

Ok, I've been thinking aout this for a while, and Recon's post kind of reminded me to post about this.

Anyway, scale. While using actual physical scale is a really neat idea it suffers from at least two flaws.

Traveling over Interstellar distances is boring, and even intersystem distances can be boring. These can both be fixed, but you have to be careful about how you fix them.

Population density can be a game killer. By nature all the players will gather in certain areas, and areas further away from that will have less players. This is to be expected and is normal. Unfortunately if you have too much space, many areas will be underutilized, if not outright empty. That detracts from the game experience and leaves the player feeling like they are playing a single-player game.

The density problem is a complex one and I'm not quite sure what to do about it. Except limit how much content is created and add more when it starts getting too full. However, the density problem is also very dependant on the scale problem. If the scale is too far out of the normal range it will feel fake, but if it is too close to the realistic range then it will compound the density problem.

I'm not sure how to fix the scale problem, and I think we have to be careful, I have a feeling that an arbitrary changing of variables may have disasterous consequences (at least as far as the physics engine is concerned). This first occured to me reading about the Infinity engine/game. The dev on that game noticed the scale issue and increased the rate at which time passed so that realistic speeds "appeared" to go by faster. My physics instincts tell me that that is a very bad idea, but I haven't looked into it enough to have a proof as to why.

[Recon]

Well my thoughts

Traveling over Interstellar distances is boring

I agree, think we should just skip the interstellar spaces, hyper-drive anyone! This also provides a good place to load and unload game resources. Could also allow the splitting up the game into different servers if user population becomes a problem. Hyper-drive should be limited to a certain range ( possibly by ship size as well ) to make travelling long distances at least some sort of a chore. also to make certain systems important as re-fuelling points (sun scoop ect). Also ,A big ships can travel farther that little ships.

Population density can be a game killer. By nature all the players will gather in certain areas, and areas further away from that will have less players. This is to be expected and is normal. Unfortunately if you have too much space, many areas will be underutilized, if not outright empty. That detracts from the game experience and leaves the player feeling like they are playing a single-player game.

I think we need to concentrate on giving players reasons to both go exploring and to congregate. What i think will be the biggest problem is when to many players congregate in one place as it will cause problems with the net code.

I think that creating a good economy and allowing players to develop their own systems is the way to go. Dont forget some people will be quite happy to go exploring, and if other players want to clump together well there is nothing stopping them.   

eg

Player joins game. plays in our main system till he has got a wad of cash from completing certain tasks ( whether generated by other players or quests ). He gets a ship, and starts exploring. He finds a asteroid rich in ores/minerals somewhere. So he goes back to a high tech system , buys a mining rig and transports it to his asteroid and sets it up. the rig starts mining and creating ore.

He returns sometime later, Collects the ore produced from the mining ring and take it back to the high tech system and sells it. After awhile he realise that he would get more money transporting processed ore ( metals and  refined minerals ) so he buys a refinery and takes it out to his asteroid. Now the ores are processed on the asteroid creating more high value/smaller cargo. Our trader is quite happy.

He returns after a while to discover that his little mining operation has been blow to bits and raided by another player. He is not a happy trader . He goes back to the high tech system, buys a new mining rig/refinery but adds a lots of defensive gear as well ( hyper drive detector, Magnetic force shield, AI turbo lasers).He talks to a couple of other players about the bloody pirates who are stopping an honest trader like himself making lots of money and asks if they would like to form a clan. they agree. And the Van Maanen's Star Mining and Trading Company is formed. ect.

Now, if we are smart we would set the game up that the whole production system is trade based.  If a high tech system produces ships, the materials for those ships have to be delivered to the shipyard .The price of ships would be based on the cost to the ship yard of producing them plus a hefty mark up. Now some basic ships would be always available but higher class ships would have to be ordered from a shipyard. Also the sale price of particular raw materials would also depend on the quantity available, If a producer is short of a particular raw material its price is high, but a flooded  market the price drops till the producer just will not buy it any more.

The gaol it to make player's develop there own solar systems into high tech systems that will produce ships for them( and targets for other players). We also make professions like Trader/Raider, a trader is allowed to travel to other players bases and buy and sell, but not steal or do damage to a base. A raider is identified on entry to a system, the raider would have a bounty on him that anyone who destroys him can collect if he kills the raider. If the raider attacks a base the AI fights back, the raiders goal it to make the base defenceless while causing as little damage as possible. More damage less stuff to steal.     

This is very complex but should be what we are aiming for in the end. It give players reasons to travel and to form groups. Not that I think we should try this right away but should have it in mind.

To start with we should just work on a single star system till we have the million other things working.

What I would like to hear is idea's to deal with travelling within a solar system!! some sort of FTL drive that only works outside gravitational fields, can get you near a planet or star quickly perhaps. 

Just some ideas.

[Rosencrantz]

What I would like to hear is idea's to deal with travelling within a solar system!! some sort of FTL drive that only works outside gravitational fields, can get you near a planet or star quickly perhaps. 

See this topic for subspace, ftl, etc...

http://forums.g33xnexus.com/index.php/topic,77.0.html

[contingencyplan]

Personally, I'm shying away from the idea of "official" professions. Players have a reputation, and some can join different groups (e.g., a miners guild) to identify themselves as a given kind of player. Someone with a miners guild certification could then get past the AI lasers of a mining facility, but there's nothing to prevent them from blowing the whole thing to bits either. Of course, when this happens, there will be evidence, and when the AI lasers also report the ship and pilot to the authorities, then the player will be marked as a raider or pirate, and the miners guild would (presumably) kick the person out.

However, all this is done as flags on player actions, not as players listing themselves as "Miner" or "Raider" or "Pirate" at the beginning of the game. Think Planeshift's system - while there are presets to send you on the path of a knight or a magician (and other things - been a while since I've played), there's nothing to prevent you from being able to learn to kick ass with magic and weapons. It's just a factor of the choices you make.

Another thing I'm big on (possibly because I just finished watching an ep of Cowboy Bebop) is bounties. If the miner doesn't want to have to form a guild to protect his investments (which could happen, especially if he just has the one operation), then he could hire a merc to protect his assets, or put a bounty on the heads of the players responsible. The bounty hunter simply kills the raider players (or gets the assets stolen back, or something), and the miner pays them. Of course, the miner could choose not to pay the bounty, but that would at the least give him a reputation of non-payment, and would likely cause the bounty hunter to kill the player as well. (We'll also have to iron out what killing means within the game - it's been a while, so I don't know which thread it is, and I'm too tired and lazy to search for it right now...)

However, I like your ideas on the economics. There's other threads that have these ideas in them, so try to move the converstaion to those threads, and let's keep discussing the scale and transportation issue here.