Topic: Races

[Morgul]

Recently, I've been re-thinking a good deal of how things work in this universe of mine, and I'm trying to make eveyrthing feel like it fits... well, inorder to do that, I've been talking to Reaka. She hit on a good point, asking my why there's not other races besides the sooni, and the Grey? (I've also decided to tunr the Overseers into the Grey's legislative body... I'll update the races sticky thread once I decide how I'm making it all work.)

So, the question is, should I have other races? I don't want many if I have more at all... Like one or two. I'm not sure. What do you think? (Keep in mind, these races will be playable by the players in the game)

--Chris

[contingencyplan]

One thing I'd like to see would be robots and cyborgs.  While not necessarily a "race", and maybe not even a playable one, I think we might could add them into the game.

Robots are autonomous computer-controlled beings created by humans.  They are especially common in Terran-controlled areas - the government uses robots to do most jobs so its citizens have the time to pursue their own interests.  Much of the society is provided and cared for by robots.

The Terrans have advanced the research of robots considerably, and this is especially evident in their military.  Their smaller, simpler combat fighters, as well as non-combat freighters and cargo ships, are controlled by on-board AI.  They are also working on robots capable of making more advanced battlefield decisions, allowing them to use robot infantry units.  Prototype units are seeing limited combat with promising results.

I was even thinking we might have a race of robots, created by the Terrans, who gained self-awareness, rebelled, and fled their human creators.  No one knows what happened to them; there have been no reported sightings.  The Terran government chalked the incident off to "risks associated with robotics research" and declared the rogue robots destroyed when no trace of them was found.  Most have forgotten about them since, but they're still out there... somewhere...


Cyborgs are humans that have had much of their body replaced with cybernetic tissue.  We see some of this today (i.e., 21st century) with advances in robotic limbs for people missing a leg or an arm.  In the future, we might have robotic eyes or hearts or such.  Some, especially soldiers, who have had severe damage to their bodies have had a much larger portion of their body replaced, some to the point that the only organic, human part of their body is their brain - the rest is robotics (think Dragoons from Starcraft, but more human-looking).  The League has been researching this extensively - controlling electronics and cybernetic bodies directly via the brain.   They believe that consciousness defines life, so even if only the brain remains and the rest of the body is machine, the person is still alive.  Thus, they seek to protect and extend people's lives through the use of these cybernetic bodies.

They are also focussed on remote-controlling ships using this brain-machine interface.  They are now introducing prototype carriers with smaller ships that are controlled not by a pilot in a cockpit, but rather a pilot onboard the carrier controlling the ship remotely.  Ongoing experiments are seeking to interface larger fighters with their pilots through this brain-machine interface.

~Brian

[Morgul]

Interesting idea, but it kinda conflicts with the sotry I'm writting. Here's the jist of how AI works:

Right now, only basic AI has been achieved. You can carry on a conversation with it, albeit a basic one. Imagine HAL, but remove all understanding of emotion, and make him seem... well... slightly less human than he did already.

However, there are 'true' AI... but I put true in quotes because it's organic based. Basically, use the Grey's organic technology, since it interfaces seamlessly with normal technology, and then either incorperate a sentient being into the grey technology (Which is how Grey ships are made, btw) OR, genetically engineer the AI based on that. Combine a computer AI, and an organic AI to create a machine that can feel.... and kick a tonne of ass.

Now, Cyborgs would be more your pirate characters, but I think they'd exist. (They should be a playable 'Race', but not be allowed to be League or Terran. However a League or Terran player could *become* a cyborg, if they wished...)

I do like the carrier idea. Hmm.....

[whitelynx]

morgul: Think of this, though... today, we already have machines capable of recognizing voice commands and synthesizing speech. There are also algorithms that have been developed to mimic sentence structure and meaning in English and other languages. In 700 years, don't you think we'd be able to think of a way to put those together with a good dose of logic (think of the AI code that goes into games... only 700 years from now) and come up with a machine that could converse with a human and follow orders?

contingencyplan: The only other problem I see with your suggestions is something that Chris has told me before about the general structure of the League and the Terrans. (Chris: correct me if I'm wrong) The Terrans tend to shun the use of AI or computerized hardware in general, preferring to have large crews, since then mechanical or electrical faliure can't incapacitate a ship easily. This helps give the Terrans their strong military, as well as their reputation for being quite hardy. The League, on the other hand, tend to make use of technology, especially robotics and AI, to the fullest extent possible as a way to help offset the obscene advantage in numbers that the Terrans hold.

Dave

[Morgul]

In 700 years, don't you think we'd be able to think of a way to put those together with a good dose of logic (think of the AI code that goes into games... only 700 years from now) and come up with a machine that could converse with a human and follow orders?[...]

Well, I didn't say AI didn't exist. Sure, you can carry on a conversation, and order it to do things... but if you ask it a simple question, "How do you feel?" It has no answer. Even if you ask it, "Which do I look better in, the red shirt or the green one?" It still can't answer. It has no opinion, and no real depth... it's like talking to a computer . (Ever see people try to have conversations with the computer in Star Trek? Doesn't work, does it?) Heck, it may even be able to take basic action on it's own... but it certainly can't really formulate concepts, or learn at a high level... even basic abstract thinking is way beyond it.

[...]The Terrans tend to shun the use of AI or computerized hardware in general, preferring to have large crews, since then mechanical or electrical faliure can't incapacitate a ship easily. This helps give the Terrans their strong military, as well as their reputation for being quite hardy. The League, on the other hand, tend to make use of technology, especially robotics and AI, to the fullest extent possible as a way to help offset the obscene advantage in numbers that the Terrans hold.[...]

That's all very true. Dave gets the gold star for today.

--Chris

[Chii]

Okay, getting back to the idea of races and not making this into a thread strictly on AI, I'd like to say a few things on my opinions on race (since I'm the one that started Chris along this track to begin with)

My original thought was if they have been exploring space for all this time, then they would have come across SOMETHING. Not much certainly, but a race or two at the very least...more than likely more. The Sooni are cool and all, but I think of them as kind of an offshoot of humans in a lot of ways. I think there needs to be something that was just there. It wasn't created by something/someone else (unless you count God, but that's another can of worms). It just came to be through good old evolution and was discovered by the humans of this world. It just seems a bit far fetched to me that they still think they're alone. If nothing else, I highly doubt it would be a surprise that there's someone else out there.

[Morgul]

Yeah. she's got a point. I will update my thing on races when I get a chance.

(There are 3 other races, not including humans, Sooni, Grey, and Overseers.)

--Chris

[whitelynx]

I think we're guilty of intelligence discrimination here. :-P Think about it... not every new race is going to have the same or even comparable intelligence compared to humans.  Look at the myriad of different life forms on earth... some planets will have more. (and some decidedly less... vacuum is hard to live in.)

Not to say that all other races have to be the same or less intelligent than humans... there should definitely be some (the overseers maybe) who are far more intelligent than humans could ever be... but intelligence isn't the end-all... Even humans, as "smart" as we are, sometimes lack wisdom or strength compared to other lifeforms on this earth. (bear attacks) The Overseers may be insanely smart, but that doesn't mean they are invincible.

I think it's going to be important to diversify all the stats of the different races... not just intelligence, but everything else about them... and keep an open mind about things. ;-)

Dave

[Morgul]

Yes, exactly. The GikDaa are a lizard race, who evolved on the same planet as the NorAel, (NorAellians, or 'Drags' as the slang term for them is... since people compare tham the mythological dragons... They're fucking huge, strong, and about humanly intelligent.) are small, and not so bright. Now, 'not so bright' is a poor description... they're wizards with technology (and frequently tamper with it, 'Just to see what happens') but they're pack rats, have little of thier own culture (that isn't borrowed), and have no comon sense.... and while they also have impressive laguage skills, sometimes basic counting gets away from them, and never to teach one math... impossible... unless it releates to computers, or technology. (I bet they can do power of 2 stuff without thinking about it... but they don't *understand* the math ebhind it. It's more instinct than anything else.)

Also, there's the *Unnammed Race* (I can't think of a good sounding name :-() who are going to be more intelligent that humans, on average. The Overseers really don't count as a race, they're more of a legend, and since no one's seen one, who the hell knows if a given alien really is an overseer, or someone pretending to be...

So, is that diverse enough?

[topher]

I like the idea of more caveman like races that can't even get it up...erm, space fllight.  Maybe allowing the players to help them reach that goal is a plot arch we can use.  

Image this:

A player who likes to explore (we need to make sure we suppor this) finds a planet with no space defenses.  He  enters the planets atmosphere (speaking of which i have an awesome idea for this) and touches down on planet.  He is presented with an alien race that is in awe of his godness and space ship.  The player then can help them gain a spqace program, equipment, so forth and some day make it into space.

A little twist would be that their are a really greedy, warfaring nation and once in space they start an aggressive compain against other planets.

[contingencyplan]

A little twist would be that their are a really greedy, warfaring nation and once in space they start an aggressive compain against other planets.

This is what I was talking about earlier - the storyline isn't linear. Players don't all follow the same quests and the like (kill monster A, get Sack 'o Crap B, take it to Shrubberer C (for fertilizer), and get gold for it).  Rather, one person's actions could drastically affect others in the game.

Because of this, I wouldn't say that only one player could effect this outcome.  Rather, you would have to have quite a few players - scientists, engineers, teachers, and the like - all there, trying to kick-start the Critters' space program.

Then, another group could come along, with the idea of enslaving the Critters. So now those two groups would be fighting against each other, one trying to enslave the Critters, the other trying to keep them free so they can join the space-faring races of the universe.

Perhaps once that race has entered space, it could become a player-selectable race even.  Naturally, we'd have to have that in place before people found the system, but still, that would be awesome - like a MMOG cheat code or special secret level or whatnot.

~Brian

[topher]

Exactly, i was picturing a group of players too working with and maybe some against.  It would be just awesome!!

Can I be a fanboi of our own game?

[fehknt]

I think that the players will absolutely love the idea that they can change something as basic as what races you can play as.

Also, be careful that intelligence isn't equated to knoweledge.  There may be a really intelligent race that simply lived underground for so long that they only recently realized that there was a "space" to go to, and so don't have a space program, or maybe they're more recently evolved and so don't have the knoweledge stored up that we do, or even thier society simply had more dark ages where science was heresey and so they had many setbacks in thier car program, much less thier space program.

[Morgul]

Very good point! Intelligence != Knowledge.

--Chris