G33X Nexus Entertainment
G33X Nexus Entertainment => Requiem for Innocence => Current Projects => Precursors => Topic started by: Morgul on April 27, 2005, 09:22:33 pm
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Ok, as the title says, I've been thinking about controls in our space flight sim... and it's really a hard trade off between playability and realism.
I guess the question here is how realistic are we going to make it. Since we're simulating physics, everything already has the realism built in. That being said, I'm sure we can get things set up with thrusters, and automatic correction, that it flys like pong, if we wanted to. Or like MS FlightSim... or like the fly cheatcode in Quake. We can do anything that we need to... however the real question in my mind is: How much skill will a user need to fly a ship? How should it be set up?
Any ideas? If so, please, comment!
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To clarify, the way we're currently doing it is pretty much 90% realistic. There are some things that will always be unrealistic in a computer game, but this leans heavily on the real-life side of things. If you accelerate in one direction and you turn, your motion in the original direction does not change unless you're using automatic compensation. All of the motion and rotation correction that we do is not done by changing the object's velocity directly, but by using thrusters to change it through acceleration. Basically, it flies like Escape Velocity, X-Pilot, or the original Asteroids. (only in 3D)
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We've recently been told the controls kinda suck. We do know this, and we're aware. We're currently re-re-writing the mehcanics system, and how our thrusters work... in layman's terms we're simplifying everything, and making controls feel much more responsive, and simple. (let us know if you want details.)
--Chris
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I'd like to say that if you make some sort of "auto corrector" component for ships that makes them fly more like people are used to ships in video games flying, make it not very hard to get, but make it really kill the speed of the ship. Beginners will probably appreciate being able to get around easily, but everyone will move to the more realistic mode because of the huge in-game advantage. Or they'll get someone else to do thier flying for them.
To directly answer the question at hand: To fly a ship, a user should require almost no skill. To fly a ship with any real power, aside from slow people-moving, a fair amount of skill should be required. To really be a fighter ace, you should actually have to be a damn good pilot. Yes, this makes people that are good at flying fundamentally better than others. That's how life works, though. You'd better pick up some sort of skill!
Although, maybe that's just the fact that I always get annoyed at how unrealistic the physics engines in all space-fighter-type games I've played. <:o)
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I'd like to say that if you make some sort of "auto corrector" component for ships that makes them fly more like people are used to ships in video games flying, make it not very hard to get, but make it really kill the speed of the ship.
Hmm, I like that idea. I don't even think it needs to kill the speed of the ship; there's only soo much you can do with controls like that. With the more realistic controls you'll be able to out manuver anyone not using them easily... making you win in a fight (hopefully).
To directly answer the question at hand: To fly a ship, a user should require almost no skill. To fly a ship with any real power, aside from slow people-moving, a fair amount of skill should be required. To really be a fighter ace, you should actually have to be a damn good pilot. Yes, this makes people that are good at flying fundamentally better than others. That's how life works, though. You'd better pick up some sort of skill!
Although, maybe that's just the fact that I always get annoyed at how unrealistic the physics engines in all space-fighter-type games I've played. <:o)
Do I understand that! ;) People are obsessed with ballance in a game... but in this game, there's so much more you can do than just fly fighters.... capital ships will, by nessessity, have a different style of controls (since they can't fly like fighters; they're too big.) ...and then there's even the FPS stuff you can do. Not everyone needsto be a fighterace. Just pray you don't meet one while you're in your little transport...
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Oh, as a note, macguyvok is the God account on these forums.. I mistakenly logged in as him... so assume the above post came from me.
--Chris
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This is what I thought, based on what you've been talking about, and what the webpage said.
Glad you like the idea...
I would assume that the RTS elements may at times tie into the space fighter and simulations? maybe even the FP sections? Offer high pay to get a few human pilots in right where they're needed for your battle of mostly computer-controlled ships? I could see a good fighter really turning the tide in a high-odds situation...
Not completely clear on _what_ gets done in FP mode... simple interaction? Maybe exploration of an unknown planet? maybe i need to re-read the faq?
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FP mode will also be combat as well as what was listed. You can have basic interactions, walk to and from your ships (inside bases, on planets, etc) and ofcourse, fight if need be.
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Back to the original topic, flight controls... Controls could even be configured and saved on a per-system basis. Even better, they could be saved _with_ a system. That way, if you buy a control system off someone, you need to reconfigure it to suit your control style unless you _want_ to use their controls.
Dave
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Interesting idea... It's customizable, but you actually *have* to customize it! :-p I like the idea.
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oh yes. Sounds like a good way to show off that extra bit of realism that people don't expect.
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So my question is will joysticks be supported or just keyboard/mouse?
I'd like to be able to use my nice flight stick ( http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/cyborg_evo.htm )
or something liek this: http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52.htm
I would totally geek out as i love periphials.
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Well, the answer is:
If I can't use both my X-Box controller (usb dongle I modded myself!) and my MS Precision Pro joystick in the final version, I will strangle every dev on the team.
So, yeah, we'll support any weird hardware we can get for testing!
--Chris
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Yuck, x-box controller. Talk about a clunky controller =( Good news though about supporting controllers.
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I've got the 's' version, and it's actually really nice. I like it much better than a PS controller.... (those hurt my hands)
....however the ABCD (or whatever they are) buttons are a tad annoying, but I've gotten used to it... :-p
Oh well, to each his's own.
--Chris
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So do we have a current keyboard mapping definition somewhere? I've played the alpha at home and i have a hell of a time fiiguring out what i am doing.
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Judging by the SVN, try precursors/config/keymaps/Default.cfg
~Brian
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topher: Also, the default key bindings are in the readme. (which is available on the website, on the downloads page.)
Dave
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You Know I think that if you make a few entry level ships for the nwbs in the game and rig them with very easy controles (You know kinda point and go) it would be great for starting off, then when you gain experience in the game you move on to more advanced ships alowing for more personalisation with the controle configuration and alowing the pure phisics to take over thus alowing the player to gain experience in flight as well while there carecter gaines experience.
as for capital ships I figure you need to gain a certain amount of experience flying small ships and how the physics work in real space before you are alowed to piolet a large ship and crash with all hands on board.
you figure if you are flying a large ship like that there has to be other people on board and these other people could be other players, hence if you crash and burn so does everyone else.
This as we all know is the gole of of this virtule world , to make it as real as posable, so as for the controles I feal that we need to make them as user friendly as posable to start and then when knowlage is obtained and practice is perfected alow the player to advance on to bigger and tuffer things thus alowing ever more chalanging play to ocure and keep all players interested much longer.
We all know that when we get a new game we play it for a while and after gaining some form of competency within it we get easly bored and move on to newer if not greaner pastures, so if our chalanges are always changing and keeping game play new I think you will see the gaming audience take hold and make it there own and stay with this game and within this gameing comunity much longer .
I think that the old argument of game balance will be meet with a little more enthusiasium and a lot less griping as well since things will be more like real life on many levels, such as, if you get killed your carecter is dead, and can't be raised like lasurous from the grave, so you have to start fresh even though you can take alot of your stats and put them twards a new carecter.
now getting back on track, the controles should be easy on one or two ships when you start and as you advance you move on to other ships that have been coded as normal life ships with all of the advantages and disadvantages as well.
I think this will keep more players in the game and alive as well.
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Sorry guys got a little long winded
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I like the concept of n00b ships being easier but there would still need to be an override. The main reason I got interested in this game project was the fact I could actually use a joystick and fly my ship (no other mmorpg space game has had this). I would hate to buy the game and then have to have the carrot dangled in front of me.
topher
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I would hate to buy the game and then have to have the carrot dangled in front of me.
Agreed.
Also, I don't particularly like the idea of a "n00b ship" - all ships should be usable by anybody, regardless of play experience. The control aspect should either be a switch within all ships, or a System / component that is inserted and removed at will, as was mentioned earlier:
Even better, they could be saved _with_ a system. That way, if you buy a control system off someone, you need to reconfigure it to suit your control style unless you _want_ to use their controls.
The component should not be expensive at all; perhaps everyone should be given one with the purchase of a ship.
Further, I don't think that we should be thinking in terms of "n00b" vs "l337" controls - we should be thinking in terms of more flight-sim controls (e.g., automatically compensate), and the space-based ones like is already in there now. Both have advantages to newbs and experienced players alike. While the flight-sim style would be more useful to the new people intially, it almost certainly has advantages even for more experienced players. Thus, both should be developed to be as intuitive as possible, rather than with the mindset of steering players in a particular direction. We should allow them the freedom to choose what's best for them and work to make that option as effective as possible. We may have a pet style ourselves, but others will want to make up their own mind without having to worry about "does this have an artificial disadvantage that I haven't heard about?"
~Brian
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I would have to say at the moment flying is pretty, i dont know, unintuitive. I've tried a couple of times now to master getting near the other ship and flying around it only to get lost in the void or a number of other odd things.
So is the goal to make it really realistic or fun (or a middle ground)? All of the games I've played in the past were purely on the fun side (x-wing, tie fighter, wing commander series, privateer series, etc.).
topher
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both -- certianly, more things are possible if you're using the "real" controls (6 degrees of freedom), but you should be able to have the AI in your ship control some of that, so that it flys more like a wing-commander type ship -- like the ability to set your foward speed, and have the computer automacially adjust throttle in all directions to attempt to keep foward velocity at the specified speed and all other velocities (slide, roll, pitch, yaw) 0, unless the controls specify a _temporary_ velocity in any of those other 4 areas -- so unlike the "real" controls, the "AI-assist" will stop you rolling after you let up the "roll right" key. All ships should be able to do this, but there is no need for an artificial penalty to using the AI assist -- because certian things will simply not be possible using it -- like attempting to keep a firing solution on another ship while still moving in a single direction (you just turn off the foward thrusters). AI Assist will either, with the thrusters left on, try to make you go towards the ship at a certian speed, or, with thrusters off, try to make you stop. Neither is what you want to do -- you are going to have to fly using the "real" controls to do an advanced manuver like that.
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I like your idea regarding the AI-controllers.
Personally, I really dislike introducing artifical penalties for using certain equipment (e.g., your ship is slower if you use the AI-assisted controls). Any penalties and consequences should arise directly from using those controls - e.g., you can't pull off some more complex flying maneuvers if you are using the AI controls. Maybe you want to keep rolling when you release the key, rather than having the AI automatically stabalize you. Further, stabalizing would likely use up more fuel (make it a VERY slight amount, should be barely noticable to even the most anal of players), so that would be a natural consequence. But to say that "using the AI system makes your ship slower" seems far too artificial, especially in the context of the future.
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Agree with the last 2 posts 100%.
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"makes it use more fuel, buy a VERY slight amount"
I don't think that this needs to be hard-coded into the AI system, if I understand how things are going to work -- the AI will use fuel to stop your roll just as much as you would to stop your roll when the roll thruster gets activated. All the added "revert to zero velocity by default" in the other degrees of freedom will mean that the AI system needs to use fuel to accelerate opposite to what you have done so that your ship stops, which may not be necessary, esp if you accidentally let up on a key while rolling or yawing (etc) then the AI reverses thrust for the brief second while you let up and then you have to resume thrust in the original direction.
basically -- AI-control gives you a logical "pitch up, yaw right" etc at specified velocities, while "real" control will give you a "accelerate tilt up, accelerate roll left" -- direct thruster control.
It's like using Java as opposed to ASM. You accomplish the same tasks in both, but ASM will give you better end results (if you know what you're doing).
I think there should be a "momentary" key too -- one that switches off the AI controls on your fighter only while you hold it down, to make simple slides possible even for people using the AI system. (think of this as C++ -- kinda a middle ground between the two systems.)
Or maybe just a "toggle" key. At least a "toggle", and maybe a "momentary".
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Personally, I'd prefer a toggle, though a momentary might work.
~Brian
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I think everyone kinda diddent get what I was sugesting about the nube ships.
I was only sugesting that a ship might be suplied till the player got into the swing of things and elected to enter the real world , so to speak.
And that this ship might be a no brainer till they got the lay of the land.
I mean some of us do need a crutch to start with some times, insted of just jumping rite in and never getting anywhere , I know this would realy turn me off to a game I just bought and couldent play.
Beleive me I've had a few of them, and they all end up in the dust pile, money NOT well spent.
as you are building this game try to think , how would you like to be introduced to this game at start up and what tuters could do for you with the game play and introducing you to how things work.
this is the only thing I'm concerned with, that is how a new player is brought in and tought how the basics work, after that its every man , woman , and child for them selves,( just watch out for the kids , they'll tear you up) :twisted:
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Well, we're going to have 'simulators' and possibly even examinations to be able to fly. Not being a pilot *SHOULD NOT* prevent you from being able to play the game. you should eb able to have fun, without every buying your own ship. That's my goal. Also, I want ti to be intuitive, and easy for new players.
--Chris
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indeed -- Space flight is only one of the three aspects of the game. People aren't going to expect everyone playing to be able to pilot well, or even at all. that's what the space taxi's are for!
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This is a discussion in wich I ended up several times when discussing space sims. You have however to remember one thing: you can't be 100% accurate. If you were to be accurate you could accelerate to mach 24 and over in planet orbit. That would make the closure speed between two fighting ships about mach 48, and would make the game pretty unplayable. Outside a planet gravitational field your speed would be limited only by how long you can keep your engines on, and possible impacts with interstellar dust. This would mean that you could reach close to the speed of light, and also that is unplayable. So for the sake of playability the ships have to behave like if they were immersed in a viscous fluid.
Then there's the matter of realistic(hard) vs simplistic(easy) flight models. Mind you, they are both unrealistic, we already established that. Today's fighter lpanes rely heavily on electronics to enhance their stability. They are inherently unstable, because this gives them a better maneuverability, but without a computer they would be ungovernable. A spaceship doesn't suffer from stability issues, as the only forces applied to it come from its trusters. However, modern aircraft behave following the philosophy of "carefree handling", meaning that even if the pilot slams on the controls they won't depart from controlled flight. I think a spaceship could well be managed by an onboard computer in order to behave "plane-like" when flown normally. However the advanced pilot might want to tweak things so that he can, for example, move vertically up during a fight. The best thing for me would be to be able to edit the control laws of my plane as I get it. Normally I'd only use the default controls, but I could add a couple of thrusters sacrificing a laser and set them to brake the ship if I put the throttle in "reverse", this sort of things. A good flight model programmer would have an unfair advantage, but I suppose this could be limited by using controlling blocks, and a limited number of options. Another option could be to have different control methods for more or less "hard core" servers. But having a combat ship behaving like a soyuz is a no-no
Sorry for the longish rant... :)
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Well, you obviously won't want to accellerate at the speed of light to your target. Also, the *time* (in real life) to accelerate to the speed of light would take a very long time. We'll be putting a cap in, at arounf half the speed of light, I think. Also, there's a 'soft cap' that the player puts on his ship when in 'combat mode'. If he increases this, he has to understand that he won't be able to hit is target, so he'd better be running. Also, controlling the ship at higherspeeds is... well... ill advised. (I hate slamming into things, personally.)
I dunno... I think that we can make it, oh, say 75% accurate, with no problem.
--Chris