Topic: Space Flight Controls, and Realism

[topher]

I like the concept of n00b ships being easier but there would still need to be an override.  The main reason I got interested in this game project was the fact I could actually use a joystick and fly my ship (no other mmorpg space game has had this).  I would hate to buy the game and then have to have the carrot dangled in front of me.

topher

[contingencyplan]

I would hate to buy the game and then have to have the carrot dangled in front of me.

Agreed.  

Also, I don't particularly like the idea of a "n00b ship" - all ships should be usable by anybody, regardless of play experience.  The control aspect should either be a switch within all ships, or a System / component that is inserted and removed at will, as was mentioned earlier:

Even better, they could be saved _with_ a system. That way, if you buy a control system off someone, you need to reconfigure it to suit your control style unless you _want_ to use their controls.

The component should not be expensive at all; perhaps everyone should be given one with the purchase of a ship.

Further, I don't think that we should be thinking in terms of "n00b" vs "l337" controls - we should be thinking in terms of more flight-sim controls (e.g., automatically compensate), and the space-based ones like is already in there now.  Both have advantages to newbs and experienced players alike.  While the flight-sim style would be more useful to the new people intially, it almost certainly has advantages even for more experienced players.  Thus, both should be developed to be as intuitive as possible, rather than with the mindset of steering players in a particular direction.  We should allow them the freedom to choose what's best for them and work to make that option as effective as possible.  We may have a pet style ourselves, but others will want to make up their own mind without having to worry about "does this have an artificial disadvantage that I haven't heard about?"

~Brian

[topher]

I would have to say at the moment flying is pretty, i dont know, unintuitive.  I've tried a couple of times now to master getting near the other ship and flying around it only to get lost in the void or a number of other odd things.

So is the goal to make it really realistic or fun (or a middle ground)?  All of the games I've played in the past were purely on the fun side (x-wing, tie fighter, wing commander series, privateer series, etc.).

topher

[fehknt]

both -- certianly, more things are possible if you're using the "real" controls (6 degrees of freedom), but you should be able to have the AI in your ship control some of that, so that it flys more like a wing-commander type ship -- like the ability to set your foward speed, and have the computer automacially adjust throttle in all directions to attempt to keep foward velocity at the specified speed and all other velocities (slide, roll, pitch, yaw) 0, unless the controls specify a _temporary_ velocity in any of those other 4 areas -- so unlike the "real" controls, the "AI-assist" will stop you rolling after you let up the "roll right" key.  All ships should be able to do this, but there is no need for an artificial penalty to using the AI assist -- because certian things will simply not be possible using it -- like attempting to keep a firing solution on another ship while still moving in a single direction (you just turn off the foward thrusters).  AI Assist will either, with the thrusters left on, try to make you go towards the ship at a certian speed, or, with thrusters off, try to make you stop.  Neither is what you want to do -- you are going to have to fly using the "real" controls to do an advanced manuver like that.

[contingencyplan]

I like your idea regarding the AI-controllers.

Personally, I really dislike introducing artifical penalties for using certain equipment (e.g., your ship is slower if you use the AI-assisted controls). Any penalties and consequences should arise directly from using those controls - e.g., you can't pull off some more complex flying maneuvers if you are using the AI controls. Maybe you want to keep rolling when you release the key, rather than having the AI automatically stabalize you. Further, stabalizing would likely use up more fuel (make it a VERY slight amount, should be barely noticable to even the most anal of players), so that would be a natural consequence. But to say that "using the AI system makes your ship slower" seems far too artificial, especially in the context of the future.

[Morgul]

Agree with the last 2 posts 100%.

[fehknt]

"makes it use more fuel, buy a VERY slight amount"

I don't think that this needs to be hard-coded into the AI system, if I understand how things are going to work -- the AI will use fuel to stop your roll just as much as you would to stop your roll when the roll thruster gets activated.  All the added "revert to zero velocity by default" in the other degrees of freedom will mean that the AI system needs to use fuel to accelerate opposite to what you have done so that your ship stops, which may not be necessary, esp if you accidentally let up on a key while rolling or yawing (etc) then the AI reverses thrust for the brief second while you let up and then you have to resume thrust in the original direction.

basically -- AI-control gives you a logical "pitch up, yaw right" etc at specified velocities, while "real" control will give you a "accelerate tilt up, accelerate roll left" -- direct thruster control.  

It's like using Java as opposed to ASM.  You accomplish the same tasks in both, but ASM will give you better end results (if you know what you're doing).

I think there should be a "momentary" key too -- one that switches off the AI controls on your fighter only while you hold it down, to make simple slides possible even for people using the AI system.  (think of this as C++ -- kinda a middle ground between the two systems.)

Or maybe just a "toggle" key.  At least a "toggle", and maybe a "momentary".

[contingencyplan]

Personally, I'd prefer a toggle, though a momentary might work.

~Brian

[BigDan]

I think everyone kinda diddent get what I was sugesting about the nube ships.
I was only sugesting that a ship might be suplied till the player got into the swing of things and elected to enter the real world , so to speak.
And that this ship might be a no brainer till they got the lay of the land.
I mean some of us do need a crutch to start with some times, insted of just jumping rite in and never getting anywhere , I know this would realy turn me off to a game I just bought and couldent play.

Beleive me I've had a few of them, and they all end up in the dust pile, money NOT well spent.

as you are building this game try to think , how would you like to be introduced to this game at start up and what tuters could do for you with the game play and introducing you to how things work.

this is the only thing I'm concerned with, that is how a new player is brought in and tought how the basics work, after that its every man , woman , and child for them selves,( just watch out for the kids , they'll tear you up)

[Morgul]

Well, we're going to have 'simulators' and possibly even examinations to be able to fly. Not being a pilot *SHOULD NOT* prevent you from being able to play the game. you should eb able to have fun, without every buying your own ship. That's my goal. Also, I want ti to be intuitive, and easy for new players.

--Chris

[fehknt]

indeed -- Space flight is only one of the three aspects of the game.  People aren't going to expect everyone playing to be able to pilot well, or even at all.  that's what the space taxi's are for!

[Brandano]

This is a discussion in wich I ended up several times when discussing space sims. You have however to remember one thing: you can't be 100% accurate. If you were to be accurate you could accelerate to mach 24 and over in planet orbit. That would make the closure speed between two fighting ships about mach 48, and would make the game pretty unplayable. Outside a planet gravitational field your speed would be limited only by how long you can keep your engines on, and possible impacts with interstellar dust. This would  mean that you could reach close to the speed of light, and also that is unplayable. So for the sake of playability the ships have to behave like if they were immersed in a viscous fluid.
Then there's the matter of realistic(hard) vs simplistic(easy) flight models. Mind you, they are both unrealistic, we already established that. Today's fighter lpanes rely heavily on electronics to enhance their stability. They are inherently unstable, because this gives them a better maneuverability, but without a computer they would be ungovernable. A spaceship doesn't suffer from stability issues, as the only forces applied to it come from its trusters. However, modern aircraft behave following the philosophy of "carefree handling", meaning that even if the pilot slams on the controls they won't depart from controlled flight. I think a spaceship could well be managed by an onboard computer in order to behave "plane-like" when flown normally. However the advanced pilot might want to tweak things so that he can, for example, move vertically up during a fight. The best thing for me would be to be able to edit the control laws of my plane as I get it. Normally I'd only use the default controls, but I could add a couple of thrusters sacrificing a laser and set them to brake the ship if I put the throttle in "reverse", this sort of things. A good flight model programmer would have an unfair advantage, but I suppose this could be limited by using controlling blocks, and a limited number of options. Another option could be to have different control methods for more or less "hard core" servers. But having a combat ship behaving like a soyuz is a no-no

Sorry for the longish rant...

[Morgul]

Well, you obviously won't want to accellerate at the speed of light to your target. Also, the *time* (in real life) to accelerate to the speed of light would take a very long time. We'll be putting a cap in, at arounf half the speed of light, I think. Also, there's a 'soft cap' that the player puts on his ship when in 'combat mode'. If he increases this, he has to understand that he won't be able to hit is target, so he'd better be running. Also, controlling the ship at higherspeeds is... well... ill advised. (I hate slamming into things, personally.)

I dunno... I think that we can make it, oh, say 75% accurate, with no problem.

--Chris