Topic: Subspace Discussion

[Morgul]

Ok, I want to talk about Subspace. I've been giving it a good deal of thought, and I have some interesting models I want to mkae for it, but I figured I'd give my thought to the community, and see if they feel the need to comment, exapand, or change my ideas. Let's see what we can come up with, shall we?

First off, what is subspace? Well, the basic principal is this: subspace is the 4th spatial dimension. (We're going with the model of 4 spatial dimensions, and one of time.) The concept here is pretty simple. By bending gravity, we are tunneling into the 4th dimension. Now, the reason this makes space travel possible can be illustrated by this idea: take a 2 dimensional bug. Put it on a curved surface. Now, the bug will figure out that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. However, if you limit it to two dimensions, the line chosen is really an arc in three dimensions. Now, let's give the bug the ability to move in three dimensions. The bug can now make the distance much shorter, by going straight in three dimensions. This is the principal of subspace. you are going straight in four dimensions of space, instead of the three we live in.

So, what are the rules of this dimension? Well, first off, it's tied closely to time, to 3 dimensional space, and to gravity. The fourth dimension is gravity's "home" dimension.. meaning, it unifies with the other three forces in this dimension. (I think that's accurate. Someone check this for me.) So, because of that, all objects in normal space have mass shadows in subspace. You should avoid those. Also, the entire dimension is littered with gravitational eddies that make navigation difficult, dangerous, and not for the faint of heart. (I will get to this in a minute.) Now there's two general rules about subspace. First: The deeper you go, the more 'straight' you can make your line, so the faster you go. (note: gravitational eddies, and the over all 'subspace pressure' increases as you go deeper.. and you need to generate a stronger gravitational field to keep you ship from going crunch.) Second: Anything you do in subspace (like explosions) effects 'normal' space. Hence, a bomb set off in subspace may cause shockwaves that bounce off the 'surface' (aka interface between normal space and subspace) till the gain enough energy to punch through, and show up in normal space as strong waves of gravity... something that could destroy planets. However, this is totally unpredictable, since no one can predict when the wave will hit normal space.

Now, something that's happened, is something much like subspace drives have been built in susbspace that smooth out most of the eddies, and make 'lanes' for ships to travel in, making travel faster, safer, and much more feasible. Keep in mind though, if you want to use the lanes, it might mean taking the long way around, since these lanes will only be to populare places. The military frequently sends ships to places with no lanes, and pirates frequently avoid them. (Less police). almost no one destroys lanes, since that would be shooting yourself in the foot. Subspace eddies have been known to destroy entire ships as large as a cruiser, in violent areas.

This leads me to an idea: weather in subspace. there could eb susbspace storms that make travel impossible, or something like that. It could be fun!

Now, the thought I have for subspace is basically a this nebula like environment, where you see something akin to lightening, and it gets much darker as you get deeper. Also, I imagine the interface to realspace to be a shimering, distorted place, lining the bottom of subspace. A mass shadow would look like a dark, twisted up knot of subspace.

So, what do you guys think? I wanna start work on this.. but I want to go in with a plan in my head. Also, ask quaestions, so I cna improve the website.

[Caenus]

Time is not a dimension!!!  Time does not exist!!!  :-P


Okay, I'm done being a mathematician now.  ;D

[Morgul]

Yeah. Way to go, mathematician. Don't give anything constructive, just something completely pointless, and untrue! Math and it's LIES! HERITIC!

Ok, I'm done now.

[Neo]

Okay, I've got a little here. Now, I know a little about light and very basic physics. My question is shouldn't photons exist as copreal particles in subspace? I mean, it explains the speed of light, as it is only able to go into the "shallower" parts of subspace it causes it to get darker as you get "deeper" into subspace, sort of like jumping into a river of particles. This would explain being able to go faster than light if you can go deeper than light photons usualy go. That would also explain why photons react to black holes and larger forces of gravity in real space. Obviously black holes are VERY dangerous in subspace, any area around you would not be able to travle, not nessisarly because you would get crushed, but being in subspace you could get pulled so "deep" into subspace as to be unable to surface. Actualy if you look at it from this perspective then subspace is a type of ocean accessible from every part of real space.

On a side note, I think larger masses of gravity in real space (suns, and planitary systems) should cause enough subspace distortion to make it completely impossible to enter subspace without a very strong power source. But that's just my thoughts based on limited physics.

[Morgul]

Okay, I've got a little here. Now, I know a little about light and very basic physics. My question is shouldn't photons exist as copreal particles in subspace?

First off, they do in normal space. 'Photons' are the particles of light, as I'm sure you know, and they are obviously visible... how else would you see? So, yes, they will be just a corpreal in subspace as in normal space.

I mean, it explains the speed of light, as it is only able to go into the "shallower" parts of subspace it causes it to get darker as you get "deeper" into subspace, sort of like jumping into a river of particles.

Well, not exactly. Photons still travel at the speed of light... regardless of where in subspace you are. You see, in subspace, you're only traveling a minor percantage the speed of light, but because you're taveling 'straighter' than in normal space, you appear to be able to reach distances in a fraction of the time it should take at the speed of light. You're not breaking the rules, you're just cheating.

As a side note: the reason for it getting darker is simply because the only light in subspace (predominantly) is coming from the interface with normal space.. the 'surface' if you will.

Obviously black holes are VERY dangerous in subspace, any area around you would not be able to travle, not nessisarly because you would get crushed, but being in subspace you could get pulled so "deep" into subspace as to be unable to surface.

Again, not quite, although you've got the right idea. Blackholes are VERY dangerous in subspace, because they appear, and act like whirlpools in subspace, pulling you down, till you DO get crushed. (Think of the normal ocean. There is a limit to how deep most submarines can go!)

Now, this does rais an interesting thing in my mind. Just like submarines, it's posisble that a ship that is pulled two deep into subspace will be crushed, but what may very well happen, is the subspace field collapses, the ship takes heavy damage, and, ofcourse, the crew is killed. However, it's possible the ship may reach an equilibrium with the surrounding subspace, allowing it to continue to drift through subspace, long after it ever should have been able to last. Discovering a ship like that would be kewl! Damn, now I wanna write a new story!

Actualy if you look at it from this perspective then subspace is a type of ocean accessible from every part of real space.

I've actually modeled this after an ocean.. simply because i'm fascinated with submarines, and naval battles.  8) ;D

On a side note, I think larger masses of gravity in real space (suns, and planitary systems) should cause enough subspace distortion to make it completely impossible to enter subspace without a very strong power source. But that's just my thoughts based on limited physics.

This, my friend, is perfectly true! If you're near the sun, the chances of you making it into subspace are slim. If you have a large enough powersource to make it into subspace, the gravitational eddies coming off that mass in subspace will be unbelieveable, and may very well destroy you.

Hey, you did pretty good for a limited view of physics. I think I did pretty good dreaming this up, with my limited view of physics.

--Chris

[Caenus]

Frankly - there's a favorite quote of mine that helps to explain what subspace is:

The closest distance between two points is a fold in space.

Subspace seems to fit the description of a quantum structure called foam.  Once two particles interact, a link is made on the quantum level that cannot be destroyed regardless of distance between them.  Now, suppose that you were able to walk along this link, regardless of normal matter.  Basically, subspace is the utilization of quantum portals that link two particles.

[Morgul]

[...]Basically, subspace is the utilization of quantum portals that link two particles.

In so many words, yes.

[Caenus]

Heh - just because my math may tell lies  :  doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all.

[Morgul]

Check my sig now.

[Neo]

First off, they do in normal space. 'Photons' are the particles of light, as I'm sure you know, and they are obviously visible... how else would you see?  So, yes, they will be just a corpreal in subspace as in normal space.

I thought photons have no mass. (correct me if I'm wrong) But If there were photons with mass in subspace (like atoms) that would give subspace a sort of 'current'. But you see this way an object with mass, such as the new realization of a photon, WOULD be able to move as fast as the speed of light. This would make subspace the currier of real space. But photons only have a small amount of energy to them. If one were able to use more energy to go deeper into subspace then they WOULD be moving faster than the speed of light 'under' real space. Becuase if light were to travle through subspace as you have it now, that means that light actualy moves FASTER than the speed of light in conjunction to real space.

[Morgul]

I see what you're saying. It's... interesting. you're right about light having no mass in real space. I like what your propose, although I need to double check some of the phsyics (since even I don't know enough about this to say if what you're thinking is plausible), but in essance, that's exactly what I'm going for.

--Chris

[Neo]

Yeah, basicaly the speed of 'light' changes as the particles fade in and out of subspace and real space, they never quite break through though, causeing our preception of 'light'. That's what I meant to say as well, but I forgot O.o

~Neo

[Morgul]

Very interesting. Hmm... I'll have to get with my physics buddies, and see if this makes any sense.

[Neo]

Well, I figured that while we were making up rules about subspace we might as well make subspace interesing.

[Rosencrantz]

/nitpick

Technically it would be nicer to call it the 5th dimension instead of the 4th dimension because when you get down to it time really acts like the 4th spatial dimension.

On the quantum foam thing, I've heard about it before but never really looked into, although that description fits some of the stranger stuff that we've been discovering recently in the QM area.

I've got an old roomate from college who was into the whole quantum foam thing (I never really read much about it for some inexplicable reason). I'll see what I can find on the subject and see what I can throw in about it.

[Morgul]

Well, ok, it can be called the 5th dimension, or w/e. I'm none to particular.

[Caenus]

You'll be shocked how much of the foam you can fit into the precursors universe (whoa, that sounds bad).  It's a fascinating subject.  If you want a quick and dirty look at what it is, read Michael Crichton's Timeline (not my source, but definitely a nice intro for a novice) and then extrapolate your own theories.

[Morgul]

You'll be shocked how much of the foam you can fit into the precursors universe (whoa, that sounds bad).  It's a fascinating subject.  If you want a quick and dirty look at what it is, read Michael Crichton's Timeline (not my source, but definitely a nice intro for a novice) and then extrapolate your own theories.

Read it. Twice. I've got it in hardcover. Mmmmmm, Mmmmmm, Good. Even my (ex) girlfriend liked it.. and she hates physics and sci-fi. Heh, go figure.

Another could good sources that touch on the subject are: A Brief History of Time (by Steven Hawkings, of course), About Time (by Paul Davies), and Hyperspace (by Michio Kaku). While I'm recomending books, also take a look at The Extravagent Universe (by Robert P. Kirshner). It touches on most of the concepts in A Brief History of Time, but in a much more transpearant way. It also touches on elemesnt of the other books. It's a damned good read.

None of those really bother to explain quantum foam, and most don't even reference it as such. However, they all touch on the subject, and on multidimensional space, and have all served as part of the basis for my ideas. (Specifically Hyperspace and About Time.)

Also, if you're a Star Trek fan, I recomend The Physics of Star Trek (by Lawrence M. Krauss). Appearantly there is a sequal called Beyond Star Trek, but I've never read it. (The preview off Amazon looks good, though.)

--Chris

[Caenus]

The sequel is great.  You might also look at "The Metaphysics of Star Trek"  Takes you even FURTHER in depth.

[Morgul]

I'm gunna have to go buy some books, it looks like.

[Neo]

Who said anything about foam?

[Caenus]

I did