Author Topic: Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.  (Read 8171 times)

Offline Morgul

  • GNE Founder
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
  • Grand Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2086
  • Karma: +21/-4
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
    • View Profile
    • G33X Nexus Entertainment
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« on: July 27, 2005, 11:21:11 am »
Something I want to put into the app in the very near future, is more than one starsystem. I actually want to have stars, with planets orbiting them, and all that fun stuff. Right now, making planets is going to be more than we want to tackle right now, so I figure a textured sphere would work as a placeholder. I have an idea about how to make suns, but I'll put that in another thread.

What we need to tackle, from a conceptual/design stand point (no code for a while yet, I would think) is how we want to handle travel between starsystems. As we all know it'd take years and years and years to even reach the closests solarsystem to our own... conventionally. So, in the game, and my story I use the concept of subspace to 'cheat'.

I've done some decent research on it, and, the basic principal is that the ship is bending space and time, creating a wormhole into the fourth spacial dimension. (If you would like a better description of how it's possible to move faster in the fourth dimension than the third dimension... I'd be happy to explain in a seperate thread.)

Now, to the design part. Subspace itself is going to be interesting... I imagine that it'll be pretty featureless.... however what we do see will be confusing to us. (Since we can only see a 3d representation of 4d space) So, how about we cop out, and just have an undulating cloud, of like blue and black. (Kinda like this, or this, only blue.)

When a ship enters subspace, I imagine an oblate spheroid (egg shape) of energy that surrounds the ship, distorts it, and eventually, fades out (rather quickly) into nothingness, when the ship enters the wormhole into subspace.

Now that we have that described, we need to figure out the game play part of it. For now, I say that we just have the ship moving through subspace (without the user's input affecting it) for whatever length of time it would take to get there.... unless people have a large problem with that. (since if we make it next to instant, the screws with time syncing betwee n players, and places.)

Deciding where you're going I think should be as simple, as bringin up a systems map. (which I imagine would be loaded into all ships by default) The map would show where you are, and have little cirlces, or something indicating other starsystems. (it will onlt show the ones we've modeled.. which will be the 'most common' systems you want to go to.) when you click on a system, the map will change, and show the system, so you can pick which planet you're going to (the navigational systems will drop you out as close as possible, and set an autopilot course for that planet), or where in the system you want to come out. It will also indicate places you *don't* want to come out (like too close to anything, since subspace has a nasty habit of sending out localized gravitational shockwaves when you exit it.) Those places will be shown as yellow, (you will damage that object) orange (you will damage yourself and the object.) and red (it will kill you.) The map will also give you basic info of each planet, if you click on it.

Here's the problem... aside from defining entry point into the system (which we could do), how do we allow the player to decide where they want to be when they exit? Do we have a grid based system, and they just click on it, or what? What would make the most sense?

Well, that's all I have for now, I'll likely post latter (after breakfast). Discuss amongst yourselves.

--Chris
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline topher

  • Developers
  • Lieutenant Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2005, 09:51:43 pm »
Subspace sounds like an excellent way to handle interstellar travel.   It would be cool to have the navigation system much like star trek or the like where you have to enter the system and an x,y,z coordinate to exit from.  Maybe depending on skill is how close you get to the desired point.

So here's a flow:

Fleet XYZ has encountered resists from a space dragon in The Orion Constellation at 4, -4, 8.  A fleet command was issued for all available frigates to get to 4,4, 8 (so 8 units above the fight) and launch a counterattack.  Pilot A has crap navigation skills and a horrible nav computer on board so he ends up at 6,-4,8, right in the middle of the enemy cruiser line.

Users hate wasting time traveling but there has to be a drawback to make it more immersive.

topher

Offline Morgul

  • GNE Founder
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
  • Grand Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2086
  • Karma: +21/-4
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
    • View Profile
    • G33X Nexus Entertainment
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2005, 10:33:02 pm »
Well, I'm thinking something more like this:

Feet XYZ encountered heavy resistance from the Terrans. They send out a call for reinforcements to System ABC. Fleet command agrees, and orders a taskforce assmebled, and the head of the task force gets the most recent position reports, and decides that all ships need to exit at coordinates 4,6,8. Pilot A has a poorly maintained nav system, (and isn't the best subspace pilot... his Subspace Nav Skill is low) so he exits somewhere in a radius of 8 units from the predefined exit point... say right in the middle of the fight.

The real difference here is that I'm emphisizing the leadership of the taskforce commander, and I'm showing how the program would think of this... it's a random radius, made bigger by the lack of skill, and the poor computer. (Any decent computer will refuse to come out in the middle of a battle, unless over ridden.)
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline topher

  • Developers
  • Lieutenant Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2005, 10:38:08 pm »
Thats a good point, if the nav system is good enough.  I think it should be dependent on the current ship's nav computer quality or rating.  Or maybe, we add in a time issue, like the low-end version would take longer to compute the correct location and let the user override it.

Offline Morgul

  • GNE Founder
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
  • Grand Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2086
  • Karma: +21/-4
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
    • View Profile
    • G33X Nexus Entertainment
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2005, 12:02:46 am »
I think it would be a combination of time and features.... some might be missing that feature. (Think black market selling old, used goods.
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline topher

  • Developers
  • Lieutenant Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2005, 09:27:08 am »
I'll be the spice runner!  What boy doesn't dream of being a blockade runner in hyperspace =)

It would also be pretty bad a^^ to have some kind of weapon system that could deter subspace travel around your ship or system.

Offline Morgul

  • GNE Founder
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
  • Grand Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2086
  • Karma: +21/-4
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
    • View Profile
    • G33X Nexus Entertainment
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2005, 10:08:55 am »
Actually, looking at the physics behind it, All you'd need is a large enough mass.... (Like a small moon, or a large ship). Smaller ships can use *gasp* thier subspace drives to do the same thing, however that means that it would take time to turn it off, and revert it back to being usable for subspace travel (no escape route) AND it eats up a TON of power... So... you *could* do it, but unless you know what you're doing you might be left almost defenseless with no quick way of escape. That could be bad....


...now, if you built a ship that had two subspace drives, and a LOT fo reactors, you might be able to do so, and still fight....

Also, it wouldn't block you from entering subspace... it'll just make doing so really hard, and possibly trear you apart if you try it. (You being the person entering subspace).

--Chris
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline fehknt

  • Special Users
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2005, 02:11:02 pm »
Why use them on ships?  use them in space stations, so if a freighter drops out of subspace and gets attacked and destroyed, then while the fighters from the station intercept the pirate, the station subspace engine is turned on  to prevent the pirates from escaping.

Such a station could be a major military asset too, in a war -- subspace it into the enemy fleet deployment path, have a fleet waiting around it, and when all the enemy ships suddenly drop out of subspace around this large "mass",  not at thier destination, then the fleet waiting in ambush gets the drop on the transiting fleet and destroys them.

Or do the same thing, but with minefields, so that ships can't subspace past them.

Maybe this would be a good "experimental technology" that gets used on rare occasions in big events because of the instability, and maybe through game developments, will be perfected later.  Maybe to make it stable, it has to be much larger, so can only be used on big space stations, and is really expensive, so the only places you might find this classified item is on a military station that people simply don't have access to.  

Or something.

Offline Morgul

  • GNE Founder
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
  • Grand Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2086
  • Karma: +21/-4
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
    • View Profile
    • G33X Nexus Entertainment
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2005, 07:16:57 pm »
I like it. Well, subspace weaponry is a *bad* idea in general, since explosions in subspace have a nasty tendancy to create gravity ripples in normal space... and those ripples can travela  long ways before dropping into normal space, and blowing things up. (Think gravity tsunami... *shudders*)

Also, the energy required to move a large mass is.. well... exponentially larger than the mass itself. However, the energy require to make subspace travel hazardous (not impossible, mind you) isn't nearly as high. Finding a base that can subspace is rare... but they *do* exist. Fidnign a base that can keep you in normal space isn't nearly as rare. (Problem is that it has a bad habit of pulling things like metiorites and other ships towards it, like a black hole or large planet... and the radius it can keep ships from going into subspace isn't as large as one would like... (The whole square of the distance thing...)
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline fehknt

  • Special Users
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2005, 11:09:19 pm »
is there a reason that freighters can't subspace in right next to a station?  just an accuracy issue, or is there soemthing more?

Offline Morgul

  • GNE Founder
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
  • Grand Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2086
  • Karma: +21/-4
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
    • View Profile
    • G33X Nexus Entertainment
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2005, 06:24:41 am »
It's part of how subspace works. Near any mass (mostly large masses) There's a gravitational riptide that makes approaching it dangerous. What's worse is that dropping out of subspace near a gravity well is very taxing on the ship, and puts a great deal of stress on everything (crew included).

--Chris
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett

Offline fehknt

  • Special Users
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2005, 04:05:49 pm »
yeah, but a space station has an awfully small mass, compared to a sun or a planet -- i figured it'd be small enough to be able to subspace in while the freighter is still in missle range of the station, so that it can instantly have covering fire if it needs it.

Offline Morgul

  • GNE Founder
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
  • Grand Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2086
  • Karma: +21/-4
  • Godlike Fuzzy Dice
    • View Profile
    • G33X Nexus Entertainment
Mulitple Star Systems, Subspace, and Navigation.
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2005, 09:05:58 pm »
True. You'd definitely be able to do that.
"Just because my math may tell lies doesn't mean that I don't understand the quantum mechanics of it all." --Caenus

The popular videogame "Doom" is based loosely around the time Satan borrowed two bucks from Vin Diesel and forgot to pay him back.

"In the beginning there was nothing. And it exploded." --Terry Pratchett